TURKS

topic posted Tue, September 19, 2006 - 11:57 AM by  **ZAK**
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Ok so this has been bugging me for sometime now, i was hanging out with my cousin eleftheria and my sister Catherine and we were at a Greek Restraunt, ok so in walks this group of Turkish girls. We knew they were turkish right away because they were speaking turkish, so my cousin eleftheria started talking about how she hated turks and wished them all death, and i dont spend that much time with her so this was the first time i really got to see how much she ahted turkish people, my family is very racist towards jews, blacks, turks and so on. but i have never understood why. ok so i kinda lost how i was going to make my point but does anyone here hate turks and if you do why????
posted by:
**ZAK**
Texas
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  • Unsu...
     

    Re: TURKS

    Tue, September 19, 2006 - 6:02 PM
    It's too bad that your cousin has let her family's prejudices become part of her thinking as well.
    • Re: TURKS

      Tue, September 19, 2006 - 8:44 PM
      Yes thats what me and my sister said to eachother* But i just dont know why she and the rest of my family have such a deep hate for them??? and the jews????? i just cant understand at all???
      • turkish peeps

        Wed, September 20, 2006 - 11:55 AM
        it could be because the turkish empire made a big land grab in eastern europe for 500 years or so. which you probably already know. but humans often hate the people instead of the crime. its seems dumb to me to hate anyone just because of what their great great great grandparents did to yours. passing judgement onto someone because of who they were born to and in what country never makes sense.

        but blood fueds die hard. simple as that.
        • Re: turkish peeps

          Wed, September 20, 2006 - 3:00 PM

          I think it's DISGUSTING and pathetic how racism is passed on and how hatred is bred through/from family relationships. Sometimes, just because kids hear it growing up, the start to believe it subconsciously, so whether they really/truly hate or not by the time they grow up, is irrelevant... they end up hating because it's what they've heard and been exposed to for years... which can also lead to UN-necessary violence ... OBVIOUSLY ~!~

          I know some of my distant family are also racist... but this is the very reason why I don't stay in touch with any of them and haven't for over 30 yrs ... ignorance breeds ignorance ...
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: TURKS

        Wed, September 20, 2006 - 4:19 PM
        I think the anti-Semitism stems from the fact that it was Jews who killed Jesus. Greeks today may not be very religious, but they, like other Christian cultures in the past, were not fond of the Jews because they killed Jesus.

        The Turk thing has to do with the occupation and of course the way the Turks treated the Greeks.

        The Black thing, I don't know. In Greece I haven't noticed an anti-Black attitude, but I have noticed in some Greeks here in the States a prejudice against Blacks. Perhaps it shows that if you are prejudiced against other cultures already (Jews, Turks) it becomes easier to pick up the prejudices of your new country?
        • Re: TURKS

          Wed, September 20, 2006 - 6:12 PM
          Anna, you hit it on the head. It's Greek-AMERICANS! They come here, and suddenly they are the outsiders, so the develope a fear of everyone who is different. in Greece there is no issue w/ blacks because there really aren't any. My experience with my own family is that they are prejudiced against just about everyone. My grandmother used to tell all her grandchildren that they could marry whomever they wished ... but then came the list of the exceptions. ..."except, Turks (#1), blacks, jews, and Germans." I think there may have been more more on the list too. Well, I married a German, and my siter a jew, so screw that.

          My own opinion of Turks: I like them a whole lot! I've only known a few personally, but I really love the similarities in culture, food, music, (belly!)dance that we share with them. I refuse to hate anyone because my grandparents had issues with them. (They were part of the "population exchange" of the 20's from Asia Minor.) We need to let the past stay there. That's why it's called history. That's not to say that I'm for theirr policies towards Greece or Cyprus. That I do not agree with, but the people, as individuals are another story (just like we Americans do not want to be help personally responsible for Bush-wacko).

          So there's my 2 drachmas -- err, euros.
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: TURKS

            Wed, September 20, 2006 - 6:49 PM
            The experiences that I have had with Turks have all been postive, as well. I think it's time to leave what's in the past, in the past.
            • Re: TURKS

              Wed, September 20, 2006 - 10:47 PM
              I've known a few Turks and my experiences with them have been really good, mediocre, and not so good. It seems, at least for me, that ethnicity is not the problem. The times when I didn't get on so well with a Turk, it was something else. A good example of this was someone that I worked with one summer, a young man of Turkish decent who was about 10 years younger than I am. He was a competitive person that thought that I was after some *promotion* in the work place that he was after too. I don't consider the problem that I had with him to be a Greek/Turkish problem. I think that he perceived a competition that didn't exist-for me this was a temporary job and I had already (at the time of the onset of the problems) had made arrangements to move on to something else. I also think that he had issues with our age difference.

              Actually, one afternoon before I left this job, he brought in his father (born in Turkey) to meet his office mates. His father was absolutely lovely to me.

              My yiayia used to talk about how well things were with the Turks before WWI. I believed her when she claimed that it was poverty and strife (all those things that war brings) that brought on the troubles. Yiayia died in 1975 but I still think that her words were spot on. I think that when humans are, well, *pressed*, it does inhumane things to their psyches.
              • Re: TURKS

                Wed, December 13, 2006 - 12:14 PM
                I just want to make it crystal clear that i have not one racist bone in my body incase anyone thought i hade the same warped mind like my cousin does!!!
                • Re: TURKS

                  Fri, December 15, 2006 - 4:50 AM
                  I've never understood that "Jews killed Jesus" thing. Someone enlighten me, please. Wasn't it the Romans???
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: TURKS

                    Sun, April 8, 2007 - 10:07 PM
                    the roman empire, and its representative Pontius Pilate, did murder Jesus, but the Jews condemned him, they persecuted him, and they brought him to the Romans attention. It was also the Jews who paid Judas to betray Jesus.
        • Re: TURKS

          Wed, September 20, 2006 - 6:46 PM
          totally agree Anna
          • Re: TURKS

            Wed, February 28, 2007 - 11:33 AM
            Well said Anna. I find that more people in Greece are racist againts albanians. As far as the blacks go I have spoken to some elder Greeks that had been robbed and treated very poorly when comming to New York from Greece in the 60's. Still no reason to be racist!
        • Re: TURKS

          Thu, August 16, 2007 - 3:06 AM
          Anti-Semitism in Greece stems from an old conspiracy theory that states that the Jews are enemies of Hellenism, orthodox christianity etc..
          oh and that for everything bad that is happening in Greece, someone else must be responsible (The Turks, the US, the westeners, the Jews, the politicians -as if they are not voted by the people- ).....

          luckily the majority of greek population does not believe such crap anymore.
  • Re: TURKS

    Sun, April 8, 2007 - 10:05 PM
    I can see that a large number of people posting here dont have a clue as to why we Greeks Hate Turks. It is a really complex question, but can easily be simplified. To begin, I would like any non-Greeks to imagine now that a people, who comes from the opposite side of the world from your own ethnicity, has in the past MERCILESSLY MURDERED millions of your forebears. Imagine you can look into the history books and read about the degrading and unGodly torture and death that this people subjected your bloodline for a thousand years. Now that you can place yourself in this situation. Realize that this is why we hate them. I am from Mytilene. Three of the Major saints from the island, were martyred by the turks on Easter. They are Saints Raphael, Nikolaos, and Irene. When the Turks hung Raphael (an old monk) up to a tree, they hung him upside down, and then sawed off his lower jaw. Nikolas, a younger monk, died immediately from heart failure at the sight of his beloved mentor's torture. Irene was a little girl, probably younger then 10, they burned her alive in a pot. Or take the Massacre at Chios? Or the Greek-Armenian Genocide in the late 19th century through the early 20th century, which SURPASSED the Jewish Genocide by the Nazis. Then realize that this is FAR from the only time that the Turks have tried to exterminate us. Then look at why they are in the west in the first place. They migrated, helped us fight the Arabs during the Eastern Roman Empire/Byzantine Empire period. They then turned on us, their cousins conquered the Caliphate of the Arabs, effectively taking control of Islam. Then they systematically turned their entire HORDES against us, and we stood the storm they brought for centuries. We were also harrowed by the Northerners, the Slavs, and the Latins from the west. This is why we dislike these peoples. They all say that they emulate and respect us, and their cultures are hybrids with ours, yet they have fucked us on so many levels throughout history. To convince yourself of some of this, search for Greek Genocide on google or youtube. I ask you to argue with history, confirmed by Greeks and others.
    • Re: TURKS

      Mon, August 13, 2007 - 5:31 AM
      Jesus...... Nicolas, you might want to read some neutral books on the subject.
      your description is oversimplistic and naive. EVERY empire/country has dirty hands with no exception.
      it is no escuse for recreating and maintaining hate.
      We have our own share in what has happened e.g. in Cyprus and Asia Minor.
      A good patriot can see the past with a critic view. That is exactly what we ask from our neighbours regarding the Armenian genocide and the attrocities in Pontus etc.

      So......Do not forget and respect the victims on BOTH sides BUT it is time to coexist in peace and spend those $$$ on health and education instead of buying F16.
    • Re: TURKS

      Mon, August 13, 2007 - 9:34 AM
      You get your history from youtube?? Fascinating.....
      • Re: TURKS

        Wed, August 15, 2007 - 11:48 AM
        I got to visit Mitilini (do you need a tissue? no but seriously, folks...), and I can see why our Lesbian friend here might feel this way.

        There is a holy site there where you can venerate a sword that killed a pack of Turks, and a mask made of sand and spilled blood. From what I remember, and if I heard right, this is the site where Archangel Mixalis came down to kill a bunch of Turks that had raided the monastery. The archangel left his sword, and the one remaining monk created that mask in Mixali's likeness. I hope I got the story right...

        In any case, praying by a sword and a reddish-brown mask might not be the best way to inspire thoughts of peace and reconciliation. I don't know how popular the site is on the island, but it is another part of the religious history that would support Nikolas's thoughts on the subject. In this story, one might even be able to find some divine vindication...scary.

        Some people might be more personally affected than others by these sorts of conflicts. That is why objective accounts, not always found on youtube, are so important. Can anyone recommend a good history on the subject?
        • Re: TURKS

          Wed, August 15, 2007 - 1:58 PM
          "Twice a Stranger" from Bruce Clarc is an amazing book that describes how mass expulsion forged Modern Greece and Turkey. It includes interviews with surviving refugees of both sides and describes all the details about the exchange of populations. It is an objective and human-centred description of the events and I can recomend it without any hesitation.

          If you can read greek then I can also sugest «Τι πρέπει - τι δεν πρέπει, Οδηγός συμπεριφοράς για καλύτερες ελληνοτουρκικές σχέσεις» by Ηρακλής Μήλλας, Εκδόσεις Παπαζήση. It is a behavior guide for better greek-turkish relationships. Basically the author is a Rum or Romios. A greek speaking Christian Orthodox born in Constantinupoli - Istanbul. He has spend half his life in Istanbul and the other half in Greece. In his book he explains why we and the turks have a different view on history and what things to avoid in a conversation (e.g. things that might offend or reinforce negative stereotypes). There is also a turkish version which was a wonderful gift for my turkish friends. I believe the original was in english (for the sake of neutrality) but i dont know if it has been published.

          from the same author you can find online an interesting article: cf.hum.uva.nl/~eurstu/pdf/wpesa4.pdf

          Also any book from Mark Mazower is an eye-opener for the complicated history of the balkans ( I am now reading his book Salonica)
          • Re: TURKS

            Wed, August 15, 2007 - 2:00 PM
            small correction: Hercules Millas was actually born in Ancara.
            • Re: TURKS

              Wed, August 15, 2007 - 2:14 PM
              Wow, the "ti prepei, ti den prepei" sounds like an amazing book, I wish my Greek were good enough to understand more than half the title. Maybe reading that book will be a goal to accomplish in the next...ten years. Hopefully, by then, there will be a translation. I'm really glad the author wrote a book that can enable effective communication.

              In the meantime, I will check out the English titles. Thank you so much for the recommendations.
          • books

            Fri, February 15, 2008 - 3:10 PM
            Salonica, City of Ghosts by Mark Mazower traces the long history of that city, the various peoples living there and its governments. Salonica was the second largest city of the Ottoman Empire. When it became a part of Greece its population was predominately Jewish. Most Jews living there were exterminated in the Holocaust.

            I'm still reading Twice a Stranger by Bruce Clark, that documents the sad history and includes heartbreaking stories of Greeks and Turks forced to leave their homes in order to consolidate the religious separation of Christians and Muslims.

            Nationalism and ethnic cleansing are closely linked. Real estate development on a grand scale!
  • Re: TURKS

    Thu, October 25, 2007 - 3:16 PM
    Greeks and Turks have a lot in common.

    Geneticist Cavalli-Sforza includes a map on page 156 of The Great Human Diasporas that shows a concentration of shared genes in Southern Italy, Sicily, Greece and Western Turkey.

    Despite the animosity we are all family.
    • Bob
      Bob
      offline 8

      Re: TURKS

      Thu, February 14, 2008 - 6:16 PM
      The official history says something like, "The Turks migrated from central Asia and took over Asia Minor..." But there was also a huge amount of Turkification. Not necessarily forced as in Islam it really didn't matte what language you spoke. But when people accepted Islam, they also began intermarrying with Turks, and once the langage was gone - well, what's a Turk and what's a Greek? Most Turks don't look very Central Asian.

      Nicolas - it's easy to say "The Turks did such-and-such." Yes, some of "them" did. But I'm an American of Greek extraction living in Istanbul and nobody has every done anything like that to me. The Ottoman Empire was...an empire. It replaced the Byzantine Empire - which was the eastern part of the Roman Empire after Rome fell. They were empires. They all took what they had from other peoples. So if you put it all into perspective...

      Add to this what happened to the Turks in many parts of Greece in 1821 - this stuff isn't talked about much in Greece though it is beginning to be admitted now. (And being out of living memory, it's easy to forget.) The Turks of Athens and the Peloponnese were mostly slaughtere, men, women and children. Kolokotronis wrote proudly that the corpses of Turks were so many on the streets of Athens that his horses' hooves did not touch the ground. These were not the oppressors, they were just people who happened to be born there.

      If you read Greek, read the "Exodos" books from the Melpo Merlie Center for Asia Minor Studies. It is a collection of accounts of refugees from Asia Minor. You will be struck by how many of them speak of how well the got along with the Turks before the Greeks invaded, and how their Turkish neighbors tried to help them. My own grandfather was from Marmara Island, and he only ever spoke of Turks as neighbors and friends.

      I recently helped with the editing of a documentary about the Greeks of Livissi and Makri (Fethiye). They went back to the villages and talked with locals, I remember in particular one very old woman, one of the very few who was old enough at the time to remember the Greek neighbors. When she told of the greeks leaving, she still was crying. And she still had a chest left to her by her Greek friend, with her trousseau, which she kept untouched to give back to her when she returned.

      It is one thing to hate the policies that came out of Athens and Ankara and turn people against each other, and another to hate the people who had nothing to do with it. Even in "recent" history - the "Septemvriana" (the pogroms in September 1955) - I look at those pictures and imagine the terror of people here - and then remember that even the youngest of the men in those pictures would be in their 70s now. It was "arranged" of course - and most of the people involved were Turks whose families had come from the Balkans - if you read honest accounts of what their families went through during the Balkan wars, you can see why they might be easily used. Each side says "they did this to us"...and it just goes back and back and back. The only way to stop it is for individuals to say "it stops here, with me, I won't be the next vehicle for hate." And isn't that what is at the root of Christianity anyway?

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